<|-- removed generator --> The Online Photographer: On Politeness and Sh*t (OT)

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Friday, 11 April 2025

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You say two things here (I have taken the end of one paragraph and then elided much of the next, which I am sure is abusing quote rules: sorry)

[...] The overuse of profanity is "the inarticulate mind attempting to express itself forcefully."

I've been a big believer in politeness from early on [...] Politeness is the custom of keeping social order by encouraging people not to give vent to the foul spewing dyspepsia in their hearts all the time and at every turn. It's not just useful. It's essential.

And this betrays you as an American, making two classic American mistakes.

For the first point: no, this is false, and you would know just how false if you had listened to more creative swearing. Swearing, when done well, is not inarticulate, it is musical: it turns language from prose into poetry. Very fine examples of swearing can be found in much hip hop music, and also in many movies. See '8 mile' for fine examples of both, for instance. Listening to creative swearing is like listening to a fine jazz drummer: there are rather few different sounds, but this does not matter, it is the rhythm that matters, the timing, the expression. Tarantino is another example of someone who has made use of swearing very effectively. See also the start of Four weddings and a funeral for a fine British aristocratic example.

Then you say things about politeness. Those things are correct, but politeness has nothing to do with swearing. Politeness is about being pleasant to other people, about treating them as human beings. And that only has to do with swearing to people who are somehow frightened of swearing for some other reason.

And, well, you are an American, and Americans are, well, f*cked up about politeness and swearing, and so this is something you probably believe. I live in the UK (although I am not a native British person) and here people are different: British people seem to me as an outsider to be more caring about others than Americans seem to be – they are more polite – but they are not f*cked up about swearing in the same way: British people understand that you can be extremely rude to someone without using any swear words, or extremely polite to them while using very many.

There is one example in the comment you quoted which shows, I think, something which is not acceptable. In particular there are many terms which, when used as exonyms (terms used about members of a group by people not members of that group) are extremely offensive: the commenter aludes to one of them. No, that is not a word you, or I, can safely use: to use it would betray us as bigots. But when that word is used as an endonym (a term used about members of a group by a member of that group) it may simply be a term of affection. I belong to a group (a 'race' if you like) which has similar exonym/endonym distinctions: there are words which, if you used them about me, I would probably not ever talk to you again at best, but which I may use freely about my relatives for instance.

[Funny, but you're being really quite prejudiced about Americans. For one thing, does it occur to you when you are lumping us all together that we are deeply divided right now on the elemental question of what it means to be one? Because that's happening. We're not a great monolith who are all exactly the same, marching in lockstep in accordance with stereotypes. --Mike]

Finding it hard to imagine a circumstance where use of the "n word" would be justifiable here, and indeed in ordinary discourse generally.
This is hateful speech in most instances, not bland or generic profanity. Perhaps Mr. Bour could explain.

No comment, other than that there is a vast difference between using s**t, which might offend, but is not offensive to a set of people, and the n-word, which is offensive to a group of people. I don’t think one should ever use that word, including Europeans fed up with American mores.

I think the necessity of politeness in our world comes down to the Golden Rule. None of us wants to be cursed or slandered, so it makes sense to refrain from cursing or slandering anyone we interact with. If we display that we can be civilized, then it sets the right tone for the conversation.

If you don't agree with me, F*ck you!

Sometimes it's useful to speak your mind and other times it's not.

So far as American censorship goes, I've seen artwork on PBS with blurred out sections of human bodies, sometimes even on images of sculptures. Meanwhile, kids are watching hardcore on their tablets. It truly is comical. But I can understand you not wanting to use profanity on a public web site, not gratuitously. It wasn't useful to do so in a newspaper story back in the day, and I see your blog as an analogue of that kind of public communication.

I grew up in Montreal and French language TV stations would show frontal nudity in broadcast films in the 1960s, for females anyway. Even Quebecers could not handle male nudity, it seems. When the USA flipped over shows like Charlie's Angels showing too much T&A, we all laughed. But the funniest was when you all lost your minds because of a bared nipple during a Superbowl halftime show. I read somewhere that the singer in question has almost not worked since. I don't know if that's actually true or not, I don't pay much attention to pop culture. I hope it's not true. It sometimes seems though that American television is one long product placement outlet for guns.

Walsh was walking down a street in Dublin when he came upon Murphy, who was wrapped almost head to toe in bandages, some of which were still bloody. Walsh cries, "What happened to you, Murphy? Did you fall off your roof?" And Murphy sez, "Nah, I was at Mrs. Ryan's house, entertaining Mrs. Ryan, when Ryan himself walks in with a f****** big shillelagh, and he beat the sufferin' bejesus out of me." Walsh says, "Well, didn't you have anything in your own hand, Murphy? Murphy says, "Nothin' but Mrs. Ryan's ass, and while it's a beautiful thing in its own right, it's not worth a damn in a fight."

Short jokes are better - I'm sure you are going to get a few.

"Patrick, what's the quickest road to Dublin?"

"Well, if it was me, I wouldn't be starting from here"

I was in the military for over 22 years, and to paraphrase an old Army recruiting ad, "We use the F-word more before 9am than most people do all day." Really, it just rolled off the tongue without thought and caused no adverse reaction from those that heard it.

I was amazed at my ability to self censor when not in that environment. Upon retirement, I took a civilian job in which cursing was not acceptable according to the workplace rule book, and those words never left my mouth without any conscious effort. I don't know if it was politeness or just the sense of right or wrong.

“ If everyone went around saying what they really think all the time, we'd create a whole society with a sludgey, sticky coating of slouching, snarling insult all over everything. We'd all go about the world in little bubbles of self-aggrandizing narcissism, dismissing and degrading others. And being battered willy-nilly by the slings and arrows of others, as they ran roughshod over our own feelings in return.”

Oh - you’ve been on social media then?

@John Bour. You might want to learn about the “n-word” and what it means. Racism is not OK in my book and it’s racist. Before lecturing others, a little reading and understanding of other cultures would be welcome. Just a thought.

I have not read your reply, so far just John's comment. my reply;
why do you feel it needs to be course. I think being civilized we do not need to include such words in our writing, with or without * or ---. It IS grownup to not need such language.
Now to read Mikes reply

Ha Ha
"If everyone went around saying what they really think all the time, we'd create a whole society with a sludgey, sticky coating of slouching, snarling insult all over everything."
I do think we are there

I'm all for politeness, as my mum would often say "politeness costs nothing" - a worthy sentiment I try to abide by.

That said, as a Brit (and worse, a Scot) the American aversion to swearing does seem peculiar. I often found it amusing in American cop shows where they describe how someone has been raped, murdered, dismembered, and then dumped in an oil drum (or some such grisly end) and the cops moan about some 'bs'. It took me a while to figure out what they were even talking about!

I guess it's just a cultural difference though, and vive la difference.

For the Scottish perspective on 'bad' language, try this: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=M0w4JojTlB4

Shortly after reading your post, I came across the following in a post on Substack by Ted Gioia (The Honest Broker):

“The words that signal strength now are increasingly the polite ones—because they are the least expected and most extravagant.

“They are the luxury items of digital discourse, and hence the sources of highest status.”

Perhaps you’re on the leading edge.

I"m the most anti-establishment, to-hell-with-the-norms, don't care what others think, person going.

But I still prefer to see "sh*t" than the word in full. If you love words (and surely most readers of this site must), it would stand to reason that profanity, swearing, call it what you like, is the sign of indolence. Which is fine.

What I struggle with, is swearing in print being considered some kind of virtue, or truth. It's just a lazy way of articulation. Isn't the world dumb enough already without adding to the heap.

My dad sometimes calls me from Thailand and we checkup on how we're doing.
During one of our chats, he ended it with
"Good talking with you sonny, but I gotta go take a sh*t"
I was amused by this, and mentioned it to my sister when she asked if I spoke to him.
A few weeks later, he calls again & we do our chat.
"Your sister told me you told her about me having to go take a sh*t"
"Can't be helped, I found it funny"
"You're wrong today"
"Huh?"
"I'm sh*tting right now."

Ok, I don’t what the flock’s gotten in to you lately, but your OT posts have been…magnificent. This one took me five minutes to clear my laughing tears….

Hej Mike, Thank you for your thoughtful reply. I have now read the rest of your post,and the latest one as well, so here goes:
First of all: I sincerely apologise for mentioning the 'n-word' as an example of silly prudeness. I am fully aware of the connotations, and the offensiveness to the African American community. It is in another league than harmless words (imho) like sh*t, or less harmless ones like f*ck, and I agree, its use is never acceptable, other than within that community itself.
But..replacing the i with an asterix, in a word that any adult knows, and nobody in his/her right mind should be offended by, is just..silly.
Silly, patronising and hypocritical.. And typically a US phenomenon. I know this, having lived in the states for years, following the news intensely (to my chagrin), and mostly consuming US books, blogs, movies etc. Some of the commenters are apparently not aware that the cultural exchange between America and Europe is almost a one-way street. 'We' know much more about your ways than you about 'ours'. Yes, a rude generalisation, but true nevertheless.

Mike, I hope you realised that the use of all the 'forbidden' words was in jest;-) Also, my comments are not specifically aimed at you, but a general observation about USA culture. We are the same age (I'm from '61), and I pride myself on being a very (very!) polite person. I swear, as everybody does, but very seldom in public, and never around children. Politeness and etiquette are ways to show respect to our fellowmen/women. I still open the door for a lady (unless we enter a public space like a bar or cafe..in that case the gentleman goes in first, to avoid the lady being confronted with any potential drunkeness or debauchery. Being my generation I'm sure you know this;-) *

Anywayway, again I apologise for the use if the n-word as an example to make my point. For all else..we have to politely agree to disagree.
Take care, John

* and I chuckle when I see a young couple in a restaurant where he is 'polite' to her and tells her.."no no honey, please YOU taste the wine" ;-)

Just the other day the SNL audience shouted the word sh*t live on broadcast TV (East Coast only). Ego Nwodim was doing a call and response bit on the Weekend Update segment and she was pretending to be the host of the White House Correspondents Dinner. While referring to politicians she said, “These men ain’t what?” and held her mike out to the crowd. The audience shouted back, “Sh*t!” You could tell from the casts response that this was not expected or rehearsed…although I’m not sure what they expected the audience to say? I agree with Kye that I don’t like to see profanity in print but its fine on TV or in movies…even when taken to extremes such as in, The Sopranos, Deadwood or most Quentin Tarantino movies.

About photography sites and the use of "profanity" or the resumed use of it.

I was making some comment about trivia, and I used the text P*ssed as in "p*ssed off" or some such. I logged on to the site the following day to a long diatribe from a moderator about substituting characters to disguise foul language. He threatened to ban me from the site.

Ironically, at least to me, the moderator was from New Zealand, where if you walk down the street and listen to people talk, you will hear said word quite often in casual conversations.

So it goes.

I also have a t-shirt that says, "I make stuff up". I was at a store and made a comment to someone who said that they liked the shirt. I said that they spelled "stuff" incorrectly, the guy laughed, knowing I meant that stuff should be sh*t, but the clerk said "no, stuff is spelled correctly". SMH

In your story of Mary on a summer's day...it doesn't sounds like politeness from your father would really have made much difference; at least not the form of politeness that seems to be under discussion in this thread, the use of "bad words". In your description of it I spot one instance of blasphemy (though with key letters bleeped), and no other bad language—and yet I feel I understand what your father said well enough, and you seem to feel that you have conveyed it. Do you think that it was the bad language that had Mary in tears for the rest of the afternoon, or the actual content of your father's rant?

Well I guess this distracts us from all the real f****** problems in this world

Weirdly entertaining and enlightening. Love the OT discourse.

I love it when American visitors to Australia are culture shocked by the profanity laced Australian dialect. Bowlderism is symptomatic of the built in hypocrisy of America, presumably stemming from its historical religious foundations. It amuses me that the hypocrisy is so endemic that most Americans don’t even notice it exists. But since I am a profanity laced Australian (and probably worse than most) myself, no doubt that’s just a small thing amusing a small mind.

Robert Heinlein said:
"Moving parts in rubbing contact require lubrication to avoid excessive wear. Honorifics and formal politeness provide lubrication where people rub together. Often the very young, the untravelled, the naive, the unsophisticated deplore these formalities as "empty," "meaningless," or "dishonest," and scorn to use them. No matter how "pure" their motives, they thereby throw sand into machinery that does not work too well at best."

I think he had a pithier version in Time Enough for Love, but I found this one first.

Hey Mike: Was it actually “sh*t” or “sh*te” that the sh*rk said?

Recent studies show that people who swear generally have higher IQ's.

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