<|-- removed generator --> The Online Photographer: Sunday Open Mike: Books, Part II: Bible Reading (OT)

« Matter of Taste (In Lenses) | Main | Ctein Is Leaving the U.S. Permanently »

Sunday, 02 March 2025

Comments

Feed You can follow this conversation by subscribing to the comment feed for this post.

Have you encountered ‘A History of the Bible’, by John Barton? It is, as its title suggests, an account of the creation of the Bible(s)- when the books were written, by whom (as much as is known), where, and in what context. It includes both the Christian Bible - that is, the New Testament - and what the author refers to as the Hebrew Bible (what Christians term the Old Testament). Plus all the formal apochryphal content, plus many other writings that didn’t make the cut when the definitive versions were agreed, plus more recently discovered writings, e.g. the Dead Sea Scrolls.

I found it to be a fascinating book. The author is a Christian and a theologian, but the book is not intended to proselytise. Recommended.

Mike, you assume that the 'person Jesus' is a historical figure, someone who like Pontius Pilate then actually lived (whether he was a god or not is irrelevant). There are, or exist no texts (or artifacts) from that time period that show or prove this, not in the Vatican or anywhere else in the world. This Jesus belongs to faith, not exact science. The biblical texts originated 200 years after dato ..., don't you know this?

Well...this is an interesting one. I think there are 2 bibles to consider. The first is the interlinear bible, in which the original languages are right there with the translation in alternating lines. But that's one for someone who wants to do the extra work of digging into those languages.

The second---best for most people--is the Parallel bible, which has 4 translations laid out across the pages. With this bible readers don't have to get into the weeds of the original languages, but can see immediately how different translations can subtly (or not so subtly) affect the meaning or at least the weight of the words.

But the faithful should be forewarned: the more you learn about the bible and how it came together and the historical contexts in which it was written---particularly true for the old testament---the more doubts you may wind up having about the sacred-ness of it all.

A history of the preparation of the King James Version is found in Adam Nicolson’s “God’s Secretaries”. It’s a fascinating read. The NRSV (New Revised Standard Version) is what I read on those rare occasions when I read the Bible at home. I’m an Episcopalian, and we use the NRSV in Church. Since Episcopalians are basically Anglicans, we’re entitled to say “you’re welcome” when someone claims that the KJV is the only true Bible; but we’re too polite, so we only think it.

A fascinating glimpse into a complex topic, Mike.

I highly recommend the modern translation of the five books of Moses by Robert Alter. The language is lovely and powerful, with very interesting commentary on the words and phrases being translated (and sometimes the difficulty of translating them):

The Five Books of Moses: A Translation with Commentary by Robert Alter

The changes in English between Chaucer's time and ours are quite obvious. But there are also more subtle changes in things like word meanings that even a highly educated English speaker might not recognize. One of these came to my attention a while back: the word "prevent". Today it means to keep something from happening. Its archaic meaning, though, is "to go before" as well as a few closely related meanings. So the a traveler might say to his companion, "Prevent me at the inn and reserve a room." That is, "Go ahead of me to the inn ..." The word "prevent" occurs 7 times in the KJV, with an additional 9 instances of "prevented" and one of "preventest". A modern reader, unaware of the change of word meaning would either completely misinterpret these instances or at the very least find them confusing. Here's an example: Psalms 119:147 "I prevented the dawning of the morning, and cried: I hoped in thy word." Certainly the writer didn't stop the dawn from occurring. Only the archaic usage makes sense in this context. I'm sure there are other archaisms in the KJV that I'm unaware of, equally able to trip up a modern reader.

Source note: I've taken the usage counts from https://thekingsbible.com/Concordance and used the link there for the example quoted.

It probably depends on why you are reading it. I'm not a Christian, but I am interested in English literature and the King James version (often incorporating turns of phrase from Tyndale) is the one with which subsequent novelists, poets and playwrights were familiar with. So if you're reading the bible for literary reasons, King James seems the one to go for. (It also happens to be the one on my shelf, because given to me as a small child. I'm unlikely to invest in another version.)

Splitting Hairs-


from the series, "Churches ad hoc".

I am not a native English speaker and only culturally christian, if even that. But if I read an English translation, I would read the KJV. I would do so because I think that the English spoken and written by people in and around London in the late 16th and early 17th century is uniquely resonant to at least British English speakers today. It is far enough away in time to sound strange, yet still close enough that, with some work, we can read it without great effort and understand its allusions. That is not true for Chaucer, whose language and world is now too distant from us.

I do not, of course, believe that the KJV is somehow unique among translations. But there is other work in English written at that time for which we know that there is a unique original even if, perhaps, we do not quite have it. And that work, also, is both readable without great effort and, to modern British English speakers, extremely beautiful:

It was the Larke the Herauld of the Morne: / No Nightingale: looke Loue what enuious streakes / Do lace the seuering Cloudes in yonder East: / Nights Candles are burnt out, and Iocond day / Stands tipto on the mistie Mountaines tops, / I must be gone and liue, or stay and die.

Even with the original orthography and punctuation this is readable today. And there is no more beautiful English than this.

There are so many bible translations. Formal Equivalence and Dynamic Equivalence, and everything in-between.

I personally view the bible as literature and prefer dynamic equivalence, which would be what J.B. Phillips has written.

Good OT today, thanks.

Footnote: I like the version of the Tao Te Ching by Stephen Mitchell. But, I like to read multiple versions. I've heard good things about the Jane English version, and will check that one out. I'm also going to read Ursula LeGuin's version. I don't worry too much if the writer can read or write Chinese due to all the available texts, it's the interpretations that are interesting to read.

[Jane English was the photographer. She didn’t have anything to do with the text. The translator was Gia-fu Feng and he did the calligraphy, and Toinette Lippe is the editor and de facto co-writer. —Mike]

Good. Be you.

Speaking of translations... If you haven't already, check out "English as She is Spoke" by Pedro Carolino. It's alleged to have had major fans in Abraham Lincoln and Mark Twain. I wouldn't be surprised if Monty Python found inspiration in it. It's in the public domain and available from the usual sources.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_as_She_Is_Spoke

I too have wondered "which" bible translation to read.

I read this article in The New Yorker: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2023/08/28/why-the-bible-began-an-alternative-history-of-scripture-and-its-origins-jacob-l-wright-book-review
Really informative of how the Bible was written to endorse one particular view of the tribes, wars, and conquests of the region. The article is very much worth a read.

Very interesting article, so I bought the book. I gave up half way through the book, too much detail. Eyes glazing over.

The book: https://www.amazon.com/Why-Bible-Began-Alternative-Scripture/dp/110849093X

Cannot say I'm into the bible at all. Or for that matter, religious texts in general. Too many wars are fought over self-serving ideologies, land and gold in the name of "god."

There are tons of great fairy tales worth reading.

Well King James had an interest in preserving property rights and the legitimacy of hereditary kings to be the head of the church, which the KJV is soaked with for one thing. Being the king of both Scotland and England which were still separate countries and wanting to unite them was another agenda.

My father was a Southern Baptist minister in Texas. He read the Phillips translation for his own study. However, from the pulpit, he quoted the KJV, of course. He also had a book with six versions of the New Testament in parallel columns. Individual verses didn't always agree.

In whatever version or translation, the bible:
1. Is a most comprehensive history book that describes the beginning of the world and until its end. No other history book comes close to it.
2. It deals with the matter of evil that exists in this world today and provides the reason (some call it sin) and the solution to that.

I remember a story in which a woman said, "If the King James Bible was enough for Jesus, it's good enough for me."* And that's all I have to say on that subject. ;)

* Apocryphally attributed (in a different formulation) to Texas governor Miriam A. ("MA") Ferguson. The sentence's utterance may be an urban legend. But it illustrates the point so nicely, one wishes it to be true.

A very worthwhile Sunday "read", well-written and well-argued. Thank you.

Try David Bentley Hart's translation of the New Testament. It's not a woodenly literal translation, but he tries to render the English in a way that reflects how the Greek would have been heard by original audiences. So, for example, you can clearly see the weird changes in tense in Mark's gospels, or Paul's paragraph long sentences in his letters. You can see in the translation which of the New Testament authors were more educated and which ones were writing in simple, even clunky Greek. Some words he either leaves untranslated or renders them in 'non-standard' ways to try to get around how many of the terms have taken on later theological significance that were probably not there originally. I find it illuminating.

I’d read a Bible called Braiding Sweetgrass:
Indigenous Wisdom, Scientific Knowledge and the Teachings of Plants, by Robin Wall Kimmerer.

Your comment about there not being a “real” English bible is too simple by half. There are dozens of them, in reality. From translations based on the Textus Receptus (as is the KJV - but one must read the preface to that translation by the translators to appreciate), to those from the later critical text, and majority text, the message of the bible is clear and unambiguous. (What one thinks of that message, and does or does not do about it is an entirely different subject.) The huge repository of manuscripts, and the careful analysis of textual variants, has--rather than demonstrated unreliability--confirmed amazing concordance. Add in the fact that the underlying manuscripts come from “all over the place” in time, geography, and cultural milieu, and it is impressive. These comments, of course, apply principally to the New Testament, but there are concomitant comparisons between the extant OT manuscripts.

A tangent off Tyndale… last year, the whole year, I read the Wolf Hall trilogy (Hilary Mantel) via a “slow read” by Simon Haisell at Substack (https://footnotesandtangents.substack.com/p/wolf-crawl). They are quite distressing, especially when you know all the inevitable dooms coming (and their awful motives and means). And also brilliant and remarkable and Hilary Mantel’s death is a great loss of a brilliant and remarkable person. I recommend Simon’s readalong, which is so sympathetically informative, but if that’s not a course of reading that interests you, I recommend the books anyway. “Translation” is, to me, a fulcrum on which that historic world (and its subsequent present) is leveraged; Tyndale, though not directly present, the lever. Honestly, Mike, I think you’d love the readalong, which helps manage and inform the reading (it’s not something I thought I’d like, but Simon is a delight).

On the subject of the bible, I recommend "The Closing of the Western Mind". The (christian) bible is not the main subject of the book, but the account of how politics played a central role in determining the "official" version is fascinating.

OT ... NT

Gideons - because I would be in a motel room and bored buttless.

Anything old and from different cultures and languages always presents a problem to modern readers. As you and some other commenters have already mentioned there are differences in even old and modern English. Add in the fact that even modern languages there are words in one that don’t have direct translation in another. Complicate things even more when you realise things we take for granted now may not have been common knowledge in times past. Mathematical concepts such as zero infinity and very large numbers aren’t as old as the Bible! Was 5,000 just an old fashioned way of saying ‘a lot, too many to count’?

https://www.recoveryversion.bible

Something I blogged a decade or more ago (sorry not to condense it a bit):

It has been suggested – utterly without supporting evidence, and unlikely as it seems – that Shakespeare might have lent a hand with the wording and meter of the Book of Psalms in the King James Version of the Bible. Well, OK, an awful lot hangs on that "might". But, just suppose that in 1610, when the Bible was within a year of publication, the members of the committee of translators had reason to thank and surprise him on his birthday. He would have been forty-six years old that year, so let's just pretend he was invited to examine the final text of, shall we say, Psalm 46?

So, take a deep breath, and imagine further that he was prompted to count to the forty-sixth word from the beginning, and to the forty-sixth word from the end (ignoring the title and the "selahs" – words signifying pauses or rests). Get a King James Bible, and count them for yourself, and you'll find in line three the word "shake" and in line nine the word "spear." Moreover, in the way of these numerological things, if you then add the 4 and 6 of forty six, you get 10. The tenth word of the tenth line is "will". Curious, no?

It is all nothing more than a complete coincidence, I'm sure. But that would have been quite an ingenious birthday present, even – or maybe especially – if unintended. Of course, it's not impossible that – if Shakespeare had any role in the polishing up of the Psalms (which, let me repeat, is not known and is highly unlikely) – it is a present Shakespeare might quietly have given to himself. These are often the best presents, after all. Yet another new quill is all very nice, thank you very much, but to create for yourself a personal secret hiding place in what would become one of the greatest bestsellers of all time would be rather satisfying, wouldn't it?

Here is one more intriguing fact (allegedly – I haven't had the opportunity to check for myself, and I'd be grateful for any eye-witness corroboration). Apparently, the KJV Bible on permanent display in Stratford church has been open at the pages containing Psalm 46 for as long as anyone can remember. Again, if true, it's probably nothing more than coincidence, or even the work of some conspiracy-minded or mischievous cleric. But a birthday should be the occasion for a little harmless fun, and it's nice, isn't it, to see the right name elegantly concealed in plain sight, rather than all those tedious de Veres, Bacons, and the rest?

I've made this decision twice. First, as an undergraduate at a Christian college where two semesters of bible study (old and new testament) were required. I chose the NIV because I found the translation approachable and because I found a nice copy for a reasonable price at Waldenbooks.

Much later, as a graduate student, I decided my only interests in the bible were literary. The Geneva Bible was the bible of Shakespeare but, at least in the United States, either the King James or the Douay Rheims are much easier to find. And all are heavily based on Tyndale.

My favorite Tao Te Ching is by Ursula K. Le Guin. She freely admits it is a version and not a translation. But it was a book she grew up with and it is lovely to read.

Bravo, Mike for publishing a post that should just be an essay on translation and faith and whatnot, but runs the risk of being seen as… well, you know.

As to which translation I’d read, it would be whichever is easiest for the modern reader to get through. I struggle even with Victorian-era classics for their bombast and lily-gilding, so Biblical passages tend to put me to sleep before the end of the first paragraph.

But I am interested in the content. Not as a believer – I’m an atheist but not a hater; I have great respect for the Bible and all of the Abrahamic religions for their place in human (western) cultural development and progress. I wish I knew the Bible better, although when I hear from people like your conservative friend I sometimes think I already know it better than they do (for reasons such as the ones expounded in your post).

It’s sad that so many among the faithful are so incurious. There’s a great line in the movie “Conclave” where the man in charge of the process of picking a new Pope says “Our faith is a living thing precisely because it walks hand-in-hand with doubt. If there was only certainty and no doubt, there would be no mystery. And therefore no need for faith.”

I also think of a anecdote relayed to me recently where an American so-called Christian was complaining about something or other (something he deemed “woke”) and it was demonstrated that it directly corresponded to the teachings of Jesus. The man’s reply was “well that’s weak and it should be changed.”

My son (age 16) showed me this Video the other day: https://youtu.be/RB3g6mXLEKk. It shows two guys competing on Bible knowledge on a TV show, and I think it makes your point very well, Mike :-)

I really like Sarah Ruden's "The Gospels: A new translation" She approaches it with a new eye that was trained on translating the classics.

The process of the Bible curating and editing through the first millennium is the subject of a whole chapter in Harari's last book, Nexus, about the flows of information through history. A very interesting read, and to me maybe much more than the Bible itself.

I've been talking with my wife about us becoming expats as well. Portugal is high on the list, though neither of us have ever been there. We're planning to visit in the next year or so. I hope language won't be as difficult a barrier as we imagine, because English is widely spoken there, especially among the growing expat community, and our phones can translate for us pretty well.
We haven't considered Ireland or the UK yet, but I do have English and Welsh ancestry and the language barrier would be lower by default.
The real daunting challenge is the thought of packing up and moving to a completely foreign place, especially since we have family and pets to consider as well.

Its not just that we dont have an original version of the bible in English, we dont have an original Koine Greek NT. As Bart Ehrman says: "I did my very best to hold on to my faith that the Bible was the inspired word of God with no mistakes and that lasted for about two years [...] I realized that at the time we had over 5,000 manuscripts of the New Testament, and no two of them are exactly alike. The scribes were changing them, sometimes in big ways, but lots of times in little ways. And it finally occurred to me that if I really thought that God had inspired this text [...] If he went to the trouble of inspiring the text, why didn't he go to the trouble of preserving the text? Why did he allow scribes to change it?"

KJV. “ Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.” Ecclesiastes 9:10. It is compact, devastating, beautiful; and the poetry allows ease of remembering.

The next verse sobering too: “I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all.”

After discovering a copy at Mayo Clinic in Rochester, MN, several years ago, this one:

https://saintjohnsbible.org

...for the pure visual pleasure.

The comments to this entry are closed.

Portals




Stats


Blog powered by Typepad
Member since 06/2007