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Tuesday, 02 April 2024

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I solved the DOF argument years ago. I simply tell them to go read Harold Merklinger's "The Ins and Outs of Focus," then we can discuss the subject intelligently. And yes, I have an autographed copy of his book.

Don't be a loser. All those arguing f/1.7 is ƒ/1.7 conveniently forget a lens doesn't take a picture by itself. It has to be combined with a camera/sensor. And a f1.7 lens will give different results on sensors with different sizes. The rest is wordplay, or sophistry.

The same sophistry is also used by users of larger sensors: "FF has better noise and DOF control than m43." No. You have to use non-equivalent lenses to get that result.

A winner should always think and talk in terms of lens/sensor combos.

The whole thing of trying to say that some aspect of an APS-C or smaller-format camera is "equivalent to" something in full-frame is just annoying. There are a number of variables involved that many of these people don't seem to be aware of, and their claimed equivalencies may be valid for one of those variables, but probably not for the others.

There is a similar phenomenon with the way people misunderstand how different focal lengths work. Someone on a photo forum (probably photo.net) once tried to argue that if you took some picture with a telephoto lens, then, without moving the camera, took a photo with a wide-angle lens (such that the wide-angle photo is centered on the same spot as the telephoto image, but has a wider field of view), then cropped the wide-angle photo down to the framing of the telephoto image, the perspective of the two images would be different because wide-angle lenses magically expand space and telephoto lenses magically compress it. He obviously hadn't tried this experiment, because he was quite wrong. The whole thing about lenses "compressing" and "expanding" space is nonsense; the effect is caused by the distance from the camera to the subject, not focal length. We tend to take telephoto images from farther away, hence the "compression" effect. Using a wider lens just gets you wider framing.

Back in the film days, many of us used multiple formats, and were familiar with the issue (and most of us understood it). I do not remember these types of conversations years (decades?) ago, but then, we didn't have internet forums on which to perform the arguments. Counting the phone, I use 4 different image sensor sizes. I still understand the difference in angle of view and am amused by the arguments. People are silly.

This is not like grammar police. What you are saying is a thing which is true because, ultimately, the laws of physics say it is true and the laws which apply here, even if they are only approximations to the real laws we do not yet know, are not going go change. People can say it is wrong or can get confused, but the people are wrong and the thing is right. It is like (not quite like) people saying the world is flat: it is not, in fact, flat, however much they say it is.

Grammar police are not like this. They keep 'correcting' people, but natural language is defined by its users: there are no immutable laws of natural language. If enough people start using language 'wrongly' well, they are in fact using it correctly, and the language has now changed. If an identifiable group of people use language in a related but different way to other (usually richer, whiter, and more male) people, well, they are in fact speaking a dialect, they are not using the language used by that other group 'wrongly'. And I will remind you that a language is no more than a dialect with an army and a navy. There are a number of useful terms for grammar police: the most polite is 'idiot'.

"but he taught it anyway because his students found it easy to grasp. [*Smacks forehead*.]"

Question being- Whose forehead? Said the guy who still recycles plastic knowing full well that only 5% of it actually gets recycled...

Alas, the endless circle of confusion... (Sorry, couldn't resist. To be honest, I've always found explanations of DOF kinda slippery, so I prefer not to think about it. Just use what you need to get the pictures you want.)

I think another (related) reason "EA" has gained traction is because the contemporary preference is for shallow DOF. When I first started seeing talk about equivalent apertures on photo fora, I tried it out myself, making some test shots using "equivalent" lenses and settings across two formats.

My experience was that the equivalency was more practical/convincing/satisfying when looking for similar amounts of background blurriness, but not so much when looking for a matching range of critical focus.

While I was one of the EA commenters on Ctein’s article, I do agree with your message here, Mike.

Ctein’s reply to me reminded me of something: the pro-EA argument (that I made) is about the specifications, and the anti-EA argument (that Ctein made in his comments) is about the design of both the lens and the total system. One is the principle, the other is the details (and as they say, the devil is in the details). One is the starting point, the other is the adjusted end point. They should be allowed to coexist.

I would be critical of any pro-EA argument that denied the effects of the design and total system on the end result. Any such argument is folly: distance, lens sharpness, sensor details, all come into play.

But if one simply wants a general guide to the starting point, then the specification-based EA argument has its uses.

Remember, Ctein’s article topic #3, that EA doesn’t exist, focused entirely on the effect on exposure, which is an argument on principle or specification. It has its own holes, when scrutinised against design and system details. It also had errors of omission by disregarding the actual subject of DOF and wandering into exposure. It was only in his comments on the comments, that he delved into other issues (argument on design and system detail).

xkcd has a cartoon for everything.

https://xkcd.com/386/

My own human depth of field is huge.

Just look at an object held in your hand, at full arms length. Yep. I'd reckon... what? F11?

Which is why any reportage images with limited depth of field always feel so contrived to me, as a viewer.

Grammar police here: "..because it's different people all the time, and there are an inexhaustible supply of them."

To illustrate Zyni's point with an example that bugs the prescriptivist in me, is the word literally, which through use has come to mean figuratively. Leaving no word to mean what was previously meant as literally.

I accept that descriptivism is proper and correct, but the literally/figuratively takeover bothers me.

But hey, I've managed to contain my annoyance by how my boss misspells the word 'and'. He spells it 'an'.

Patrick

Mike, if "f1.7 is f1.7 is f1.7", where do T/stops fit in?

I think I remember seeing the DOF vs format equivalent stuff pop up on the forums (DPReview, etc) about the time that 24x36 sensors became better, cheaper, and more commonplace. I peg that at about 2008, with the introduction of the "affordable" Nikon D700 24x36 camera.
In line with the theme of your 'Don't Be A Looser' article, if folks want to limit their photography hobby to forum posts about false DOF Equivalents and bizarre Corner Sharpness obsessions, then that's what photography is to them.

My blood pressure spiked when I read the title. Then I remembered, “This is Mike. He did that on purpose.” I feel better knowing I’m not the only one who gets their nose tweaked by that particular grammar mistake.

:slow clap: 👏

In only about 62 years of photography (and probably only around 58 where I had any concept of "depth of field")—it's been something I desperately needed more of 99.9% of the time when it was an issue. (And aperture is so constrained by exposure issues that the chance that I can open up to blur the background is near zero—I'm at max aperture already just to get enough exposure to have a picture at all.) All my old photo books seemed to take that attitude (nearly always good, many mentioned intentional background blur to isolate the subject as a useful technique). And of course one of the most famous view camera techniques is specifically to give you a sharp field from the ground near the camera out to infinity; that's not depth of field of course, but it's visually about the same.

It's something multi-format photographers need to know, but most photographers use just one film or sensor size, at least over periods of years. (Yeah, I had medium-format cameras some, and some different sensor sizes, but I'm not "most photographers", neither are the rest of us here.)

The same aperture delivers the same light to the film/sensor across the formats (which is why it results in the same exposure), but results in different depth of field (with equivalent FOV focal lengths). But that really only matters when jumping back and forth between formats trying to duplicate the same results. (And when choosing a format, which I guess is when it comes into the current discussions a lot.)

"A technical understanding of __________ is not required for the successful practice of photography."

Fill in the blank with whatever matter is at hand, and you'll probably be both correct and happier for it.

It is funny, or sad, how even supposedly knowledgeable people get simple things in photography so fundamentally wrong. Just a few points, maybe for future discussion. And to add to this f/1.7 aperture discussion that, f being focal length, a 50mm ‘normal’ lens has at 1.7 a 50mm/1.7=29mm diameter aperture. I believe many people don’t know that, based on the complex explanations on aperture numbering I have seen.
‘Normal lens’ does not correspond to the field of view of human eye. I wonder how so many people claim that when any person who is not blind could immediately see it with his own eyes.
There is no wide angle perspective. Perspective, how the different parts in the image relate to each other, is decided by the location of the camera. Focal length has nothing to do with it. If you put a wider lens on your camera and move closer, then the perspective changes, but only because you moved.
And rangefinder cameras do not have parallax compensation. Whether expensive Leicas or cheap copies. You can only compensate for the parallax error by moving the viewfinder window to the place where the lens is. I remember some Mamiya TLR had such a gizmo that lifted the camera higher and lower to place the viewing and taking lenses in the exact same spot, thus removing parallax error.
Some other day we can talk about tilt and shift lenses and the scheimpflug effect which also seems, maybe intentionally, overly complicated to many ‘expert’ photographers.

One phenomenon concerning DoF and format sizes that I find interesting and cannot fully understand is the "falloff" (certainly the wrong term) of DoF in various formats.

Pictures taken on large format/medium format cameras often feel different to me not because there is the "make the background" blurry effect of typically "full format" 24x36mm frames taken with f/1.4 lenses, but because there is kind of a more subtle change from "in focus" to "out of focus" that I think you cannot fully reproduce in a smaller format. Does this exist, or is it just my imagination?

This reminds me of the discussions about T/stops.

Fine, now let's tackle RAW, which is the equivalent exposure of simply saying raw, but implying it is somehow an important abbreviation- or even, say, an acronym, whose letters stand for no one knows what.

In response to another response, here is one of those rich white guys mentioned who try to correct language usage:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proper_Cantonese_pronunciation

WOW! What a lot of aggravations and assumptions.

And here naive Moose is, just interested in how format and aperture may be used to make the pictures he wants to make.


Off the reservation:

I've been doing what one might call manipulated (mediated? curated?) DoF. I take a stack of frames/slices, to get the subject all in focus. By shooting wide open, f1.2, I get lovely background bokeh and subject separation. Close focus, deep 3D subject f1.2 means razor thin DoF in each frame, thus lots of frames.

If I shoot @ f5.6 (f11-ish in FF DoF), it takes far fewer slices, but two things are different. The background is not as creamy and the fine detail is slightly edgier.

I might add that in merging, I carefully cut off the stack at the slice that has the deepest part of the subject in focus. That keeps the background OoF. Sometimes it's a lot of frames into the bit bucket. 🙂

Here, an ~ 4 in. diameter flower, 91 slices.

(Click for larger version.)

15 slices for this tiny bud, and glorious bokeh.

(Click for larger version.)

Another 91 slices, this close, this deep.

(Click for larger version.)

Broken Box Moose

(Sorry, Mike, some folks like pix of flowers.)


I’ve done more than my share of shallow depth of field work, And even more fun curved depth of field work, But recently, my problem has been getting enough depth of field in gigapixel scale images.

My problem is that anything stopped down more than about f/4.5or f/5.6 loses sharpness, but to get from 1/2 mile to 30 miles away both in focus I need at least F/16. Excuse me, I mean adequately sharp. So my problem becomes I can have the foreground sharp , the background sharp, or neither sharp.

I know, nose to the wall sharpness with 40 foot prints is kind of a silly problem, but you get hung up on something and it’s hard to let go.

Oh, I should mention that these are hundreds of photos stitched together.

I think I meant for my comment to be on the next post.

This topic is triggering me to go off looking for telephoto lenses with Waterhouse stops and apodization filters to insert therein.

I never find them.

As someone who shoots m4/3, I convert everything to “m4/3 equivalent.” For example, if I read about a full frame 24-70 f/4, I’m going to convert that in my mind to 12-35 f/2, which is a stop faster than the Panasonic 12-35 f/2.8 I use.

But the time I use “equivalent aperture” the most is when I’m thinking about cropping. For example, let’s say I want to take a picture with an angle of view that requires a focal length of 150 mm on m4/3. I own these relevant lenses:
- 40-150 f/4-5.6 -> f/5.6
- 35-100 f/2.8, applying a 1.5x crop -> f/4.2 “m4/3 equivalent”
- 75 f/1.8 applying a 2x crop -> f/3.6 “m4/3 equivalent”

So the 75 is still the fastest lens, even when cropping to 150, although the 35-100 zoom isn’t far off (and the 35-100 leaves me with more pixels).

Zyni's comment is gold. And why this blog is so special. The range of comments are wonderful.

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