<|-- removed generator --> The Online Photographer: Open Mike*: Buying a @#$!@% Car

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Sunday, 11 April 2010

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Hmm, 20 grand to spend? Buy a two year old car for $10 and use the other €10 to buy a Pentax 645D. Twice the fun! Don't buy a GTi until your son has his own wheels ...

Cars are like cameras without lenses. Just go for the cheapest one. It's already loaded with more than what you need.
Or, as a snob left-wing radical European, I should say: use the bus.

Very topical for me. My car (diesel Renault Espace) is sixteen years old and on its last legs (wheels). I took it in for its annual MOT (UK annual test) on Friday expecting it to need a lot of work. The garage rang to to tell me that it had passed. I was shocked.

And then you show a picture of a Hyundai in your post. We have decided to trade in our old car for a Hyundai Santa Fe (not new but new for us). Somehow my wife managed to get £500 trade in on the old car. That's 25% of the £2000 I paid five years ago. And I was just going to take it to the scrapyard!

If you need to get from A to B you would be buying a cheaper car in the first place. As car price isn't that important to you, buy the GTI.

Personally, cars are for getting to a place. I'd spend more money on what I want to do once I get there... Beyond comfortable seats and a 'not noisy' ride, I can cope with anything. If I could save $6k I'd get a drum scanner, a Mamiya 7 and a couple of lenses..

Cars are never a sensible purchase...

It's funny how the States don't have some options. Having slept, I looked around. I would have recommended Nissan X-Trail, but you don't have it. It's what's called soft-roader: 4x4 not as good as, say, Landrover Defender, but still plenty good off road. And being diesel, it can do up to 33MPG.

Another possibility would be Nissan Qashqai. Kinda lower-level SUV. Also very good mileage and handling abilities. But you only have Rogue with that 2.5-litre engine, not the European 2-litre diesel.

Finally, yeah, Subaru seems like a good option. Forrester - big, reliable, able to go in quite a variety of conditions. More expensive than Sonata, cheaper than the GTI. Still, I don't understand what the USA have against diesel, because you can only buy petrol engines.

Get the car you really want. Everytime I settle for the "objectively better choice" I resent it later on.

"1. The son buys the struts, pays for the insurance and gets the old car."

Whatever you do, don't put a new driver into a new car. It's not fair to them. Get them an old, strong car, preferably one which already had a few dents, so minor scrapes don't matter.

"2. You buy a decent used car for yourself:
- late 80's/early 90's Golf, Mercedes 190, or 3 series BMW".

I've had two daughters start driving recently - the horse rider started with a Landrover Defender and now has a 1989 RangeRover with a diesel engine fitted; the other one is starting with a 10 year old smallish Vauxhall (Chevy) - similar to a Golf.

Me - I've a 1989 RangeRover and a 1986 BMW.

Interesting that you've had so many comments on the choice between to cars, not cameras...Cars are universal, even more than cameras

Until we moved to Addis (where the ONLY sensible choice is a Land Cruiser), we had a VW Golf Diesel and an Audi A6 V6 diesel. In five years they each went to the garage once every 30000 km for service (expensive but only once a year, or less in the case of the Golf). Reliable, fun, good gearchange on both (both were manual) and fabulous perceived quality.

I would go for the GTI but get rid of the wheels - unless you get them for nothing.

Andrew

Used. No question. New car smell and some superficial servicing ain't worth $10k.

end scrooge :)

You have all the conditions needed to buy a Volvo... Find a good used S80 and you'll never regret it.

Mike,

Judging from the sheer number of comments, people are more emotionally involved with their cars than even their cameras. Whew. If you really are looking for advice and not just encouragement to go the route of desire, try Consumer Reports for a really unbiased, clear evaluation of vehicles that you can sort on your own criteria. They won't steer you wrong at all.

Mike Bailey

I've bought two cars with my head, and regretted it both times.

Buy with your heart.

How about starting with something sensible, like a Renault Clio hatchback. Comes with a nice little mid-mounted V6 ;-)

Nix the Ferrari. Any fool with enough
money can buy one. Get a used Yugo. The
older the better. You'll really stand out
in a crowd.

Dear The Online Petrolhead

(judging by the response to this 'off topic' post)

Mike

Why don't you keep the old car for a bit longer so that Zander can get an idea of what he needs in a car and can contribute to the choice of the new one? If the old one collects a few dents and scratches along the way you might knock, ooh, $30 off what you can sell it for. Much like my '94 Fiesta, which I need to replace very soon.

You may not know, but two door cars have longer doors than the four door versions. This might make it easier for the middle aged driver to get in and out.

Roger Bradbury
Age 51
Circumference 48"

So many responses, but only a few with solid advice: Drive them! Drive them hard and fast! TEST them! Put some ass time in those seats!

Those really are seriously ugly wheels on the VW, but sell 'em to some local kid, and put on something better.

And the Hyundai is an mishmash of styling gimmicks designed by a committee via speakerphone.

"Still, I don't understand what the USA have against diesel, because you can only buy petrol engines."

Erlik,
Same reason we have much dirtier fuel than Europeans. Because the monolithic nature of the U.S. (as opposed to the many countries of Europe, all with their own regulations) makes it much easier for Big Oil to control the rules. The oil companies get their way here. They want us to use "petrol" (gasoline), we use petrol.

Mike

"Interesting that you've had so many comments on the choice between to cars, not cameras...Cars are universal, even more than cameras"

Marcus,
And, in fairness, we do discuss cameras quite often. We seldom discuss cars, and I've never asked for car-buying advice before. Anyone who wants to say anything on that heading probably knows they'd better day it now, or risk having to wait another twelve years. [g]

Mike

Holy cr*p ... 200 comments and counting!

So does this mean that photographers are actually closet car freaks, or is that just the type of photographer who reads TOP? It is truly amazing how much people enjoy getting a vicarious buzz off someone else's shopping (me too).

Poor Mike. I'll bet he's sorry he posted this. Must be more confused now than ever!

My thoughts: get the best darn car you can possibly afford, according to your own definition of "best." Satisfy your own values without compromise and you can't go wrong. Your decision should leave no room for "I wish I had ...".

Now that I've stirred the pot without actually contributing anything, I'll pass the torch on to the next 200 commentators.

Get the Golf. Forget the low profile wheels. Hit a pot hole and you're into a new tyre, if not a new wheel as well. Been there, done that. Not once but five times. New wheel and tyre on my wifes TT cost in the region of €800.00 New tyres on my car, and I broke two on one pot hole alone, cost about €200 each. Says more about the state of Irish roads I suppose.

Youngest boy has GTi. Its hot to drive but would get me into a lot of trouble. Just couldn't drive that car slowly.

Don't know about your neck of the woods but around here Hyundai are naff.

Dude, you live in Wisconsin. You shoot photos outdoors all thear long. Go buy a Subrau - they come with manual transmissions and motors from mild to wild. Get a wagon to haul stuff or a sedan to hide stuff, then go where the road leads.

(Of course, I sold my last Subaru a year ago to buy a truck (to tow the family camper) and a 20-year-old BMW for my commute. I miss that Subaru every freaking day.)

Get the one with the best steering. Thats the key to any car's personality. An old Alfa GT would be best.
I still marvel at my 13 year old SAAB 9000's ability to charm me on back roads. I think BMW 3's or 1's probably are the best now.
But of your two choices think steering above all else.

Buy a motorcycle, have some real fun! BMW S 1000 RR will really wake up your life!

Of course..everyone who suggests buying used is correct. Mike..dont buy new, it's 5 grand tax just for driving the damn thing off the lot.

Used is king for sure.

"Don't know about your neck of the woods but around here Hyundai are naff."

Paul,
In my neck of the woods we don't know what "naff" means! Doesn't sound good, though.

Mike

Definitely go with the GTI. Maybe use internet shopping if your dealer isn't very cooperative. Chicago's not that far from the tundra of Wisc. Might want to invest in snowtires. Those would really make the GTI a blast in winter.

Mike, isn't this your Blog? I come here to read well written thoughts, photography is just a bonus, write what you want.

Someone told me, "you only pass through here once...", I got that unreasonable car, no regrets.

If you are not paying cash, then buy the cheaper car. You'll feel better about it as each month goes by.

I'd say go with the VW, since that's what you really want. You can probably pawn the wheels off on some local teen for $500 (more with the rubber if you go to a more pothole friendly wheel size) on Craigslist. One suggestion: think hard about the extended service contract from the dealer. I own (mostly happily) a 10-year old Audi (with turbo) that the year after I bought it was rated as the least reliable car by Consumer Reports. Went back and bought the extended warranty with no regrets. I'd say the nature of the problems has been more annoying than serious (lots of plumbing and other moving parts in them turbo motors) -- as with all cars these days, it's the labor charges that really get you. Good luck!

1. First and foremost thing is do not buy a car with a rubber cam drive belt.

2. Do not buy a car to show everyone else how successful you are.

3. Euro cars cost more down the road.

4. USA built or not, everything under the skin will most likely come from China any way.

5. How is the bike riding going?

Skip
San Diego, Ca

From your post it sounds like the VW is the car you want, while the Hyundai is the sensible alternative. Making a choice based on quality is hard, as I've certainly gotten some lemons following advice from CR (not cars, but on other expensive purchases).

As someone else suggested, check into the insurance costs. With a teen driver coming on board soon, that could change the actual ownership costs of the equation significantly. Also, based on your kid's level of maturity, ask yourself, "Is one of these cars significantly more likely to end up wrapped around a tree once I let him drive it on his own?"

Get the Golf. My husband recently bought a car because it was "the sensible, reliable option at a good price" and every time I get in it with him he moans about how he doesn't like it.

So get the Golf for the sake of your family :)

I do however get 30 mpg in the city.

There are at least a couple of posts here mentioning 30 MPG as if that's a good thing. In the UK we would think of 30 MPG as very poor performance. But we don't have fuel as cheap as it is in the US!

Mike, I think you're stuck in feature-comparison and I suspect that you're not focusing sufficently on your overall goals with the car.

I'm still really happy with my choice back in 2003. I'm in Australia, so will keep this general. I bought a locally-made larger car with a super-reliable, well-proven, six cylinder engine; the car had just come off a three-year lease, had clocked only 17,000 miles (27,000km here) and cost 51% of the new price. Someone else had paid all that depreciation and had garaged it for its short life. It cruises effortlessly at low rpm on expressways and country roads, glides through the bends and has plenty of airflow from the aircon for our warm climate. I still enjoy the sleek outer design every time I walk up to it. It gets pretty good fuel economy on the open road; OK around town, where I drive it conservatively. And it earns the least expensive insurance rating. It has provided me with very enjoyable, reliable and therefore economical motoring. It fits my goals neatly.

I agree fully with the few earlier suggestions of having Zander pay for new struts on the existing car. Much less stress for you.

Hi Mike,

Living just south of you (20 miles), here's what I can mention:

1. Teen drivers can be tough on cars. My 19 year old son pruned an old apple tree with my wife's 850 Volvo, and then did some deer hunting with an old Mercedes diesel. He was fine after both accidents. The cars---not so much. He's driving a Volvo 850 now (non turbo, of course).

2. Fun drives are 'fun'. One of my first cars was a Triumph Spitfire. Reliable? Easy to get parts? Great electrical? Never started on fire? No to all. But what a riot. For the last 15 years, I've been driving used Volvo wagons because they basically go forever and I've got a mechanic who is golden. When the kids are out of college (two more to go), I'll consider another fun car. The GTI certainly looks like fun, but I'm guessing that there are some other choices (Mini, some of the Subies) that would be nearly as good.

3. Whatever you decide on, decide to spend $500-600 on a set of dedicated snow tires on steel rims (order from the Tire Rack and they'll show up on your doorstep in 10 minutes---I have no idea how they do that!). Good snow tires in this climate can really make a huge difference.

Have fun deciding!

Jim

Mike,

I would seriously consider shopping around for a used vehicle that may be more than you could afford in a new car, or save some money buying a used version of what you were looking for new.

I have never purchased a new car for myself, but my wife always buys new, and I can say without a doubt that used cars can cost less long term. I average keeping vehicles for 7-12 years and have had cars as upscale as a 7 series BMW. In cost per year my used cars have actually been cheaper to own than my wife's new cars.

I have also gotten a rental car when I needed something for a long road trip if I had any doubts about my car at the time.

Go with your heart, but you might want to test drive a Subaru too>

"But we don't have fuel as cheap as it is in the US!"

Actually only our DIRECT costs for fuel are cheap. We pay a lot indirectly, in taxes and add-ons to the national debt. The purpose of the U.S. military is currently to insure oil supply lines worldwide, and that's not cheap. The best analysis I've seen puts actual U.S. fuel costs at around $8.20 a gallon. And we all pay a good share of that even if we don't drive much.

Mike

I've owned a lot of cars, starting with a 1957 Bel Air; everything from 60's muscle, to British sports (TR3, MGB)and all other types of US and foreign cars. I currently own a Subaru Outback and find it to be one of the best all around cars that I have owned, for pretty much all reasons. Drives well, comfortable (I have a bad back;driving my wife's Audi, which is lower, is not good) great in snow and very solid/well built and reliable. I would suggest that you look at the Subaru's, as others have mentioned.

You also might want to factor in the cost of increased insurance premiums once your son is on the paper. I believe that the type of car is factored in also. They stay on your policy until they are 25 or living X miles away.

I live the NY 'burbs where VW's used to be thick as gnats; now I rarely see one. From what I gather (around here anyway), their reputation for reliability has gone way down.

VW without a doubt, I just traded a 2001 golf (with 1.8T engine, essentially a four door GTI anywhere but the US) for a reasonable car with fewer miles for my wife. I loved that car because of the reasons you cite, it looked and felt comfortable but drove like an absolute beast. Adrenaline is just a downshift away.

We are a one car family and she drives more than I so she won this decision. I regret it every day I drive. Once you're hooked on a VW, nothing else comes close unless you are shopping luxury brands. But actually, even then my dad drives an Acura and while its fun, I would pick the golf.

Hi Mike,

I know my feedback is late as some have given the advice I would have given. But one thing prompted me to write. Your choice of cars are so similar to mine. At least the idea of which car I should hypothetically buy. Anyway, I remember your post about the Honda Civic Si. That is a beauty. When I drive around and see one, especially the coupe, I just can't stop following it with my eyes. Then there's the Volkswagen GTI. Another beauty that I drool when I come across it. The funny thing is, I'm not in the market for a car. I just enjoy from a distance and imaging what it would be like to own one. And more recently, I read an article in a car magazine about the Hyunday Sonata and It caught my eye. The design is much more bearable than previous models. But I know, a Hyunday is just a Hyunday. So, between your choices, I'd say go for the VW. I'd be very disappointed if you didn't.

Desi

Mike,

Having owned an '02 GTI, and "progressed" to an auto sportwagen, all I can say is:

1. Never compromise on the Stick.
2. Never get the car that you don't love (since you're one of those guys that sees cars as more than an appliance.)

I will be dumping the wagon and getting back in a GTI, the kind of cars you keep buying no matter how old you are.

Have any women weighed in on this post yet? Sorry, I couldn't wade through them all. Mike, your fly fishing doctor friend is right...get something safe. That doesn't mean you can't get something that's also visually impressive and fun to drive. Have you considered a pre-owned BMW or Volvo? Let someone else take all that immediate depreciation off the price of a brand new vehicle. Plus, guys of a "certain" vintage driving around in midlife crisis hotrods just look kind of pathetic. I'm sorry if that sounds harsh; it's not meant harshly. (Not that you're at that vintage yet, but if you intend to keep the car for years, you will get there eventually.) Every spring and fall, why don't you rent your dream car for a long weekend and have fun? But buy something that makes sense and that you won't have to fret over. Good luck.

All I can say is I've had my Hyundai for 7 years, parked it only outside in the freezing winters and humid heat of the midwest, and I haven't had to do anything to it besides scheduled maintenance. Plus I love the car, good ride, zippy, and plenty of room for all my stuff.

I was in a similar situation a couple years ago with a teenage driver coming on line.

Our insurance agent suggested a Honda Civic, based on both personal experience with her son as a teen driver, and overall experience with customers. Looked around the high school parking lot and it sure seemed like half the cars in the lot were Civics (The other half appeared to be hand me down SUV's and a smattering of older, very large sedans - probably inherited from Grandma).

So going with the flow, went to Honda dealers looking for a Civic. Stumbled across the Fit, then brand new to the US.

The Fit is a great car for a new driver. Airbags all around, just enough horsepower to manage lane changing on the freeway, incredible interior room, (have the dealer demonstrate how seats fold), great visibility, Excellent IIHS safety rating for a small car, etc.

I appreciate the desire for the GTI, I have always lusted for a VW as well, but your son will be leaving for college soon enough and probably want to take a car with him (or be commuting locally). That would be the time to get something for dad.

In the meantime the Fit will get you both where you need to go, with Lulu, and you will sleep well when your son heads out at night with his friends in the car

The Hyundai has one type of "quality" - the by-the-numbers kind. Costs, frequency of repairs, durability.

The Golf has the other type of "quality" - the kinesthetic and emotional kind.

I've had a Jetta before and enjoyed driving it, but it did get a bit expensive to repair (frequency, cost of parts) once it got above 80k miles.

My wife and I now own 2 Audis, a big station wagon, and an A3 hatchback, which is like a slightly larger and less-blingy Golf (no manual trans though I don't think). It also is great fun to drive and gets good economy, but I can also say from experience with our bigger/older Audi that the bills can rack up fast. It's rare I get out from even the independent mechanic for under $1000 (this is in San Francisco). But I've rented Hyundais, Hondas and Toyotas, the "quality" champs, and they leave me cold, so I pay the price of admission...

I'm 55. I figured out a long time ago that money spent on cars is money down the drain. The best thing to do is to get vanity, hormones and emotions out of the buy decision and be practical.

Buy a good, used car 3-4 years old. A used factory-certified Toyota with a clean CARFAX report is a great deal because you'll know all the maintenance was done properly and you'll get a 100,000 mile warranty. Similar situation for other for other makes. Learn how to drive a bargain when purchasing and it's an even better deal. You can't drive a bargain if you're making an emotional decision, or if you've convinced yourself buying a car is painful process. It's a matter of self-education and self-discipline to drive a bargain for yourself.

BTW check the insurance rates on a new car vs. a 3-4 year old car and you'll find another reason to buy used.

I retired 8 years ago because I learned to be smart about this stuff. I had my share of slick rides and let me tell you: good practical transportation will tickle the pants off you when you don't have to worry about making a buck.

Ars longa, vita brevis!

I'd consider again that Subaru, especially if it snows where you live.
You might also find www.euroncap.com useful.
E.

GTI

My wife and I rented the current Mazda 6 during a November 2008 trip to Zion, etc. It was a 4 cylinder automatic. It was quite peppy and would have been a kick with a stick. Almost got a speeding ticket with it but the officer was quite nice and realized I was paying more attention to the scenery than speed on a long downgrade and just told me to be careful. Handling was quite nice.

The personal ride is a Camry Hybrid, which is quicker than you'd think in its weird continuously variable way. Doesn't handle as well as that Mazda though but it does sip gas.

Life is too short. It might be the last New Car you buy. Indulge yourself.

Msmack

The best analysis I've seen puts actual U.S. fuel costs at around $8.20 a gallon.

The highest US price per gallon I can find on the internet is just under $3.

In the UK a gallon of unleaded is £5.46 which equates to $8.39 at current exchange rates.

However the US gallon is 0.83 of a UK gallon so the equivalent pump price of a US gallon of petrol in the UK is $6.96

Where does your $8.20 figure come from?

Last year I bought a 2010 Mazdaspeed3. It's much less expensive than a GTI. The seats are pretty comfortable for my XXL size frame and the rear hatch is cavernous and can swallow most anything. Manual 6 speed, 280 ft/lb of torque, limited slip differential.

The only thing I would suggest is that you purchase winter tires as the summers tires turn to mush when the temps fall below 40.

Bought my first Golf (a GTI) 3 months ago. Because I test-drove it a few hundred miles. It's fun. A good, solid car that handles great.

My limited experience with cars (more than twenty including Mercedes, Volvo, BMW, Nissan etc.) tells me to go for the fun factor if you can afford it within your budget.

But a car is JUST a means of transportation, like a camera being only a TOOL for taking pictures.

Have fun, whatever you decide to do :-)

Greetings from Germany - we love building cars.

Okay, here's the deal:
I'm 56, I read you column almost every day, and I drove minivans for two decades. Two years ago, I was primed for a 'personal' car. I ended up with a Mustang GT. Wrecked it. Bought another. Love it.
My advice: dude, buy the VW. It rocks good enough for you. Enjoy.

"This makes it unlike the frigging Mazda 6 and Honda Accord and Ford Fusion, all of which are built to accommodate six-cylinder engines but only come with a manual transmission on the four-cylinder versions,..."

While I agree whole-heartedly with your enthusiastic review of the GTI I must point out that the Accord V6 is, in fact, available with a manual transmission.

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